Date sent:        Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:45:58 -0800 (PST)
From:             Rolland Elliott 
Subject:          UV photography with Nikkon Enlarging lenses
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

This post is for everyone who's interested in UV photography!

I've been doing some research about UV photography over the last
couple of months, and recently got a true UV filter made by B+W.  The
only problem is that I now need a lens that will pass UV light (most
modern multicoated optics supress UV light substantially, and
unfortunately, all of the lenses I own are modern and multicoated.)  I
though I would have to buy some super old non coated Nikon lenses to
use with my camera, but I heard that these older lenses usually are
not corrected in the UV range, producing unsharp pictures. However, 
it looks like Nikon Enlarging lenses might be better than old uncoated
lenses for UV photography see below:

Here's some interesting information I picked up from a Nikon Catalog
about their enlarging lenses:

EL-Nikkor enlarging  lenses are corrected for chromatic aberration
beyond the visible spectrum into near ultraviolet wavelengths --
wavelengths to which photographic papers are particularly sensitive. 
Through the use of special optical glass and matching optical
coatings, EL-Nikkor lenses are designed for ultraviolet transmission
in the 350 to 450 nm range. This means EL-Nikkor enlarging lenses can
be used for color separation in addition to all other enlarging
applications. EL-Nikkor lenses are also front threaded to accept screw
in accessories , and can be used for exceptional small-object
photography when mounted on a bellows.

These enlarging lenses don't have the spectral transmission of a true
UV quarts lens, but then again they don't cost $3000 US dollars like
Nikon's quartz lens.

My only problem now is to figgure away to mount these enlarging lenses
on my Nikon N90s camera.  I need some kind of adapter that goes from
the Nikon F-mount to a 39mm thread that is deep enough to allow me to
turn the lens in and out of the mount for focusing purposes.

I'd appreciated any insight from those who might have  tried this.

Sincerely,

Rolland Elliott

==
Rolland Elliott
25D Janet Circle 
Bridgeport, CT  06606
(203) 371-8412





From:             "Willem-Jan Markerink" 
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Date sent:        Tue, 9 Mar 1999 00:17:10 +0000
Subject:          Re: UV photography with Nikkon Enlarging lenses
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

On  8 Mar 99 at 9:45, Rolland Elliott wrote:

> My only problem now is to figgure away to mount these enlarging lenses
> on my Nikon N90s camera.  I need some kind of adapter that goes from
> the Nikon F-mount to a 39mm thread that is deep enough to allow me to
> turn the lens in and out of the mount for focusing purposes.

First, my compliments on this nice discovery; well done Sherlock....:-))

Second: are you sure that your current lenses are unsuitable for
near-UV use, just below 400nm? I believe I have seen more than one
reference claiming that it is far-UV (closer to 300nm) which causes
big problems with non-UV corrected and multicoated lenses. I think we
have a handful other members on this list who have done extensive UV
experiments, in particular a Norwegian member I believe....also one
of the links on my homepage.

Third, M39 is by far the most universal mount on this
planet....simply because adapters exist in nearly every odd mount,
including old German mounts you and I wouldn't even recognize, *and*
in both directions. There is no other mount that combines these two
aspects so perfectly. Of course, part of the reason is it's German
roots, the old Leica range finder system....add a German adapter
manufacturer, Novoflex, and you can arrange the most silly
constellations of adaptions, simply because you can do so through an
universal mount inbetween. For example from Nikon-lens to M39 and from M39
to Canon FD body....the sky is the limit. With of course a big 'but': you
most likely loose infinity focusing with all (35mm!) photo lenses, as
well as with all non-tele enlarger lenses (less than 75mm or so is my
rough guess)....but for macro use this is all you need.

So, this leads to the famous 'last but not least' question for
non-bellows use: what focal length are we talking about
here?....what is the focal range of these EL lenses?

I'll start creating yet one more chapter on my homepage....the amount 
of UV-chapters is sadly low thusfar....:-))

[if you still don't believe in coincidence: last sunday I found a
Kodak 18a filter on a second hand photo market....;-))....never ever
seen one before in all the years that I have visited second hand
photo shows....and in this case I was triggered by seeing Guenter
Wagner's book about IR-photography, after which an old 52mm B+W
infrared #89B was digged up (chrome, and no type indication on the
mount)....and my 'do you have any more exotic stuff with you?' was
met with this 18a filter....I already had two homebrew Scott UG1/UG3
filters, but this Kodak 75x75mm also allows flash use....cool....]

--                 
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand


[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]






Date sent:        Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:53:28 -0800 (PST)
From:             Rolland Elliott 
Subject:          More on UV photography
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

> More on UV photography:

> "Are you sure that your current lenses are not usable for
> near-UV use, just below 400nm? I believe I have seen more than one
> reference claiming that it is far-UV (closer to 300nm) which causes
> big problems with non-UV corrected and multicoated lenses."

 No, I'm not sure.  In fact I haven't even tested them yet, but the two
 or three web pages that I've read on UV photography warn against using
 modern multicoated optics for UV work.

> "Third, M39 is by far the most universal mount on this
> planet.... 'but':you most likely loose infinity focusing with all
> (35mm!) photo lenses, as
> well as with all non-tele enlarger lenses (less than 75mm or so is my
> rough guess)....but for macro use this is all you need.
> So, this leads to the famous 'last but not least' question for
> non-bellows use: what focal length are we talking about
> here?....what is the focal range of these EL lenses?"

Nikkor EL lenses range from 40mm f/4 to a 360mm f/5.6 lens, quite a
wide variety.  I tried hand holding a 50mm f/2.8 lens infront of the
lens mount last night and discovered that I could get sharp focus on 
objects about 2.75 meters away, but no infinity focus. I just bought a
75mm f/4 and a 135mm f/5.6 lens on ebay for a pretty good price, but 
have yet to use them.

> "[if you still don't believe in coincidence: last sunday I found a
> Kodak 18a filter on a second hand photo market....;-))....never ever
> seen one before in all the years that I have visited second hand
> photo shows....and in this case I was triggered by seeing Guenter
> Wagner's book about IR-photography, after which an old 52mm B+W
> infrared #89B was digged up (chrome, and no type indication on the
> mount)....and my 'do you have any more exotic stuff with you?' was
> met with this 18a filter....I already had two homebrew Scott UG1/UG3
> filters, but this Kodak 75x75mm also allows flash use....cool....]"

You must be one lucky guy!  Those 18A filters cost a mint.  What
exactly is a homebrew Scott UG1/UG3 filter?
While your working on your UV web page chapter you'll probably want to
note the following facts:
1) Tiffen makes an 18 A filter
2) B+W no longer makes its 484 filter, which I believe  is equivalent
to a 18A. 
They do however still make a 403 filter which lets in UV and some
visible violet light, but not much.

Peace Rolland Elliott





Date sent:        Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:58:29 -0800 (PST)
From:             Rolland Elliott 
Subject:          Cheap source for UV transmitting filters?
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

Does anyone know of a cheap source for UV transmitting filters for UV
photography?

Hoya has discontinued their UV filter the U360, and B+W has
discontinuted their 18A equivalent the 484 filter.

I think there are only three filters available for UV photography now:

B+W makes their 403 filter which lets UV and some visible light
through, so it's not quite equivalent to an 18A filter which blocks
all visible light.

Tiffen makes an 18A filter.

Kodak makes an 18A filter, which is square.  

All of these filters are VERY EXPENSIVE, and must be mail ordered in
the US.  

There must be other sources, that are cheaper.  Are their any cheap
plastic or gel alternatives?  Any homemade soultions?

Thanks Rolland





From:             "Willem-Jan Markerink" 
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Date sent:        Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:23:14 +0000
Subject:          Re: Cheap source for UV transmitting filters?
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

On 12 Mar 99 at 9:58, Rolland Elliott wrote:

> Does anyone know of a cheap source for UV transmitting filters for UV
> photography?
> 
> Hoya has discontinued their UV filter the U360, and B+W has
> discontinuted their 18A equivalent the 484 filter.

Are you sure about that?
Could that be an US-market or stock issue?
Either B+W or Heliopan will mount *any* type of Schott glass on
request/custom-order....and while 403 is nothing more than Schott
UG1, 484 is nothing more than UG3....and it's very hard to believe
Schott wouldn't make those anymore....

> I think there are only three filters available for UV photography now:
> 
> B+W makes their 403 filter which lets UV and some visible light
> through, so it's not quite equivalent to an 18A filter which blocks
> all visible light.

I am afraid you are getting into marginal differences here....18A is not 
100% opaque to the naked eye in broad daylight either (shielding eye 
provided)....I would rate it equivalent in visible transmission 
intensity (not color!) to 88a.
Also note that according to Kodak charts, #18 has a near 1-10% 
transmission dip between 700 and 800nm....which can clearly be proven 
with an IR-only source like a light bulb.

> Tiffen makes an 18A filter.
> 
> Kodak makes an 18A filter, which is square.  

Yup, and mounted in a metal frame. Hand-written coding on the 
box....pretty slow moving item I guess....:-))

> All of these filters are VERY EXPENSIVE, and must be mail ordered in
> the US.  
> 
> There must be other sources, that are cheaper.  Are their any cheap
> plastic or gel alternatives?  Any homemade soultions?

Nope, only glass will do what you are looking for....have seen that 
question pop up several times in sci.optics over the years, but no 
one ever mentioned an alternative to (expensive) glass.... 

--                 
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand


[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]





From:             "Willem-Jan Markerink" 
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Date sent:        Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:40:50 +0000
Subject:          Re: More on UV photography
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

On 12 Mar 99 at 9:53, Rolland Elliott wrote:

> > "Third, M39 is by far the most universal mount on this
> > planet.... 'but':you most likely loose infinity focusing with all
> > (35mm!) photo lenses, as
> > well as with all non-tele enlarger lenses (less than 75mm or so is my
> > rough guess)....but for macro use this is all you need.
> > So, this leads to the famous 'last but not least' question for
> > non-bellows use: what focal length are we talking about
> > here?....what is the focal range of these EL lenses?"
> 
> Nikkor EL lenses range from 40mm f/4 to a 360mm f/5.6 lens, quite a
> wide variety.  I tried hand holding a 50mm f/2.8 lens infront of the
> lens mount last night and discovered that I could get sharp focus on
>  objects about 2.75 meters away, but no infinity focus. I just bought a
>  75mm f/4 and a 135mm f/5.6 lens on ebay for a pretty good price, but
>  have yet to use them.

Mmm....what format are those Nikkors made for anyway?
Larger than 24x36mm negatives?
It just occurred to me that with a little luck you could do
medium-format tele work with the longest focal lenghts...
Are they by any chance also well-corrected for IR?....:-))

With some approximately-matching extension tubes, an
M39->medium-format adapter, and a focus-rail camera like Mamiya
RB/RZ, you would at least have a medium format solution for
artificial-light situations (since RB/RZ have lens shutters)....even
better would be a Rollei 66, also focus-rail, but with focal-plane
shutter (so daylight short shutter speeds also included).

>  You must be one lucky guy!  Those 18A filters cost a mint.  

The guy who sold it to me claimed US$200 new, in Holland....is that 
close?....:-)) 
I even bargained a bit on all 3 items, IR-book, IR-filter and 
UV-filter....hey, I am Dutch, it's in my genes....:-))

> What exactly is a homebrew Scott UG1/UG3 filter?

B+W 403 and 484 respectively....a friend found them as unmounted
circular's, and they now sit in 49mm rims (I think, can't use them
directly on any of my lenses, only held in front of my 100/2.8
macro).....see the chart about UV/IR filter transmission and their
equivalents on my homepage:

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm

>  While your working on your UV web page chapter you'll probably want to
>  note the following facts:
>  1) Tiffen makes an 18 A filter

Interesting, didn't know that (the #87C isn't that often used either, even 
though it is listed in B&H tables).
Wouldn't surprise me if both Kodak and Tiffen use Schott UG1 or 3 as 
well....it's quite an exotic piece of glass, even for scientific 
use/customers they are apparently not easy to get.

>  2) B+W no longer makes its 484 filter, which I believe  is equivalent
> to a 18A. 
> They do however still make a 403 filter which lets in UV and some
> visible violet light, but not much.

Will try to find out with both B+W and Heliopan....I vaguely recall
that at least one of them is not unwilling to do custom-work, and
Schott definately still makes this glass, and that is what they were
using in the past....probably just a stock- or market-related issue.

But none of that will change the stiff price of these filters....;-((

--                 
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

      The desire to understand 
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand


[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]





Date sent:        Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:13:16 -0800 (PST)
From:             Rolland Elliott 
Subject:          Discontinuted UV Pass filters
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

I wrote:
> Hoya has discontinued their UV filter the U360, and B+W has
> discontinuted their 18A equivalent the 484 filter.

WJ replied:
Are you sure about that?Could that be an US-market or stock issue?
Either B+W or Heliopan will mount *any* type of Schott glass
onrequest/custom-order....and while 403 is nothing more than
SchottUG1, 484 is nothing more than UG3....and it's very hard to
believeSchott wouldn't make those anymore.

My reply:
Yes, I'm sure, (at least in the USA). All of Hoya's filter catalogs
that they send to customer's in the USA now come with an additional
letter that lists all of the discontinuted filters.  The U360 is one
of the discontinued filters.
I called up B+W and they told me they no longer make the 484 filter. 
However, as I mentioned before the 18 A is still made by Tiffen and
Kodak, which can be easily ordered through B&H in New York City.  

sincerely rolland elliott


==
Rolland Elliott
25D Janet Circle 
Bridgeport, CT  06606
(203) 371-8412





Date sent:        Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:15:26 -0800 (PST)
From:             Rolland Elliott 
Subject:          Using Nikkor EL lenses on Med. Format Cameras for UV photography
To:               infrared@a1.nl
Send reply to:    infrared@a1.nl

>> Nikkor EL lenses range from 40mm f/4 to a 360mm f/5.6 lens, quite a
>> wide variety. I tried hand holding a 50mm f/2.8 lens infront of the
>> lens mount last night and discovered that I could get sharp focus on
>> objects about 2.75 meters away, but no infinity focus. I just bought a
>> 75mm f/4 and a 135mm f/5.6 lens on ebay for a pretty good price, but
>> have yet to use them.
>
> Mmm....what format are those Nikkors made for anyway? Larger than
> 24x36mm negatives? It just occurred to me that with a little luck you
> could do medium-format tele work with the longest focal lenghts...Are
> they by any chance also well-corrected for IR?....:-))

The EL Nikkor 40mm and 50mm Enlarging Lenses are for 35mm film.
The 75mm EL Nikkor lens is for 6x6cm work.
The 300mm EL Nikkor lens is for 8x10 inch (or maybe 11x14 inch
negatives?)
The focal lengths inbetween are for 6x7, 6x9, 4x5inch, and 5x7 inch
negatives.
So yes, in theory they could be used on a Medium Format camera for UV
work.  I do not know if they are well corrected for IR work.

Peace Rolland Elliott


==
Rolland Elliott
25D Janet Circle 
Bridgeport, CT  06606
(203) 371-8412

If you have any question, remark, comment, want to share some philosophy or just want to express your opinion about these pages, feel free to send email to: w.j.markerink @ a1.nl