Gregory,

Seems I got to be the lucky one in exchanges of book tips Velikovsky's book is exactly my kind of book, I devoured it in no time at all. Thanks for turning me on to it.

In case you don't remember the major themes of "Worlds in Collision", I'll briefly recount my impressions. The book deals with major catastrophes around 1500 B.C followed by a second episode 52 years later, supposedly caused by an incoming comet which later became our planet Venus. The orbits of Venus and Mars were unstable for 7-800 years after this event and caused more destructions around 7-800 B.C with changes in calendars and tilting of the earth as a consequence.

The major revelation for me is that our earth went through such a catastrophe at the time of the Exodus (1500 B.C.). Of course I knew about the "troubles" the Egyptian Pharaoh had at the time but I had related these upheavals to the eruption of Santorini (Thera) around 1625 B.C. (Charles Pellegrino wrote a great book about it, proposing that Santorini was the Atlantis of legend.). I also didn't know that there were another series of upheavals around 750 B.C. and that the ancients thought that Venus and increasingly Mars were the culprits.

The interesting thing is that at one point Velikovsky is unsure of why the ancients mention Jupiter in combination with their fear of Venus. He comes to the conclusion that Jupiter "gave birth" to Venus as a comet and that Venus later became a planet which lost it's tail. He mentions that Jupiter left it's place and struck Typhoon (Venus) with thunderbolts, and adds that the ancients themselves were not sure which of the planets had caused the destructions. AND HE ADDS: "others interpreted the globe as a body different from Jupiter." Add me to those who interpret the body as a different entity, namely "Nibiru, the Planet of the Crossing" from Sitchins' cosmogony. I am so excited about combining the two author's world views, because in my view everything starts to make sense when this is done. Sitchin has a planet returning every 3600 years, according to him one return caused the "flood" we know from the bible. I now realize that every return causes incredible catastrophes, and that we can pinpoint a return to around 1500 B.C, which caused the Pharaoh to go "bananas" and helped the Jews form their own religion. AND WHICH BRINGS ANOTHER RETURN TO OUR TIME, 3600 years later. Reading UFO books like "Alien Agenda", I am struck by how often I run into the motif of the aliens (when interpreted in a benign way) warning us about the approach of a celestial "body" that will cause disaster. Some interpreters have put this occurrence around 2012 and others at around 2060, both fit in with 3600 years since 1500 B.C. Here is even a plausible explanation to the various cover-ups of alien activity, maybe a major reason for the cover-up is that there is nothing we can do about an approaching disaster in the near future and that the elites are trying to save themselves and in the process funding their survival efforts by selling illegal drugs, since they can't really demand that we fund their efforts through taxes. If I remember correctly, Marrs proposes a similar theory in "Alien Agenda".

Anyway, I think that if Nibiru is not a comet but a planet, Nibiru must somehow while exchanging "firebolts" with Jupiter rip off materials from itself and from Jupiter which forms the "tail or horns" that the ancients describe. When Nibiru then approach earth this tail is first attracted by gravity and hits us with a rain of stones, boulders, dust etc., causing darkness for days and a reign of terror by stirred up vermin like snakes, flies etc., thus causing all the 'troubles' of the Pharaoh. When Nibiru is at it's closest we have the real destruction with earthquakes, floods etc.. Supposedly the sun didn't reappear until 25 years after the event and at this time the ancients noticed that Venus shone brightly even during daytime,

I draw the conclusion that Nibiru caused Venus to change it's orbit so that it at times came really close to both the earth and to Mars, thus causing another disaster after 52 years and the instability for hundreds of years followed by new cataclysms around 750 B.C., then mostly caused by Mars. Whereupon the orbits stabilized into the current orbits of peacefulness until next time Nibiru comes around.

This world view explains the legends of different "sun" ages prevalent around the world. Whether 5 or 8, these ages always end in destruction, sometimes by water sometimes by earthquakes and fire. At the start of a new age we supposedly have a new sun and a new moon. No wonder, if a near collision with Nibiru can cause the earth to tilt on it's axis, the rotation to be reversed and the seasons and days to be different from what they were, that the ancients perceived that they had a new sun and a new moon when in reality it was our earth that was "new"(of course the moon was "new" also).

Here are some notes I took while reading "Worlds in Collision":

1……Aristocles said that Zeus hid the unborn Athena (Venus) in a cloud and then split it open with lightning.

2……Iliad….it is said that Pallas Athena (Venus) "darted down to earth a gleaming star" with sparks springing from it.

3……Hevelius: In the year of the world 2453 (1495 B.C.), a comet was seen in the form of a disc during Exodus.

4……Rochenbach: In the year of the world 2453, a comet appeared. It was fiery, of irregular circular form, with a wrapped head; it was in the shape of a globe and was of terrible aspect.

5……Other writers: It is depicted as an immense globe (globus immodicus) of fire, also as a sickle, which is a depiction of a globe illuminated by the sun, and close enough to be observed thus. Its movement was slow, its path was close to the sun. Its color was bloody: " it was not of fiery, but of bloody redness." It caused destruction in "rising and setting" . Servius writes that this comet caused many plagues, evils and hunger.

6…….Campester; …was sure that should the comet Typhoon again meet the earth, a four day en- counter would suffice to destroy the world.

7…….Pliny: A terrible comet was seen by the people of Egypt, to which Typhoon, the king of Egypt, gave his name. It had a fiery appearance and was twisted like a coil, and it was very grim to behold: it was not really a star so much as might be called a ball of fire.

8……Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great interval of time and only rises a little above the horizon. (Pythagoras is generally credited with having access to some secret science.

9…….Chinese astronomical text; "Venus was visible in full daylight and, while, moving across the sky, rivaled the sun in brightness.

10……Ingo Swann (Alien Agenda): I think it (Jupiter) must have an extremely large hydrogen mantel. If a space probe made contact with that, it would be maybe 80000 - 120000 miles from the planet’s surface. Lower down , from the inside they look like rolling gas clouds

• eerie yellow light, rainbows . I get the impression, though I don’t see, that it is liquid. Voyager 1-2 found a ring of boulder size debris.

11……Alien Agenda:….Page 338…..The grays said a planet is about to make an appearance in our solar system within the next 60 years and will wreak havoc here because this time this thing is going to pass on the side of the sun facing us and the sun won’t be there to protect us. …….There are people that will be taken aloft before the trouble begins down here…happens every so often….isn’t the first time nor the last…..every so often the planet on which they live comes this way and they get to visit what I take to be their old stomping grounds so to speak.

12……Alien Agenda….page 343…every 25000 revolutions around the sun, the earth is pelted by large stones from the sky. There is also a planet that crosses the orbits of planets in this solar system and causes a lot of problems….hologram… this planet is going to be close to earth as it begins to accelerate in its own orbit going out of our solar system.

13……65,000,000 years ago an asteroid sideswiped Mars and caused its atmosphere to disappear, after that it crashed into our earth and caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. This was the beginning of the Martian’s problems.

I haven't read such a stimulating book since I read "The 12th Planet" and I am eagerly awaiting your evaluation.

John,

I will give you the evaluation of Velikovsky you ask after I have had a chance to get a bit further into Mr. Marrs' Alien Agenda, which was itself a most marvelous book tip. Not only has the book included a plethora of stories, details, and angles that I was previously unfamiliar with, but there were even some whole theories that were new to me (like his lead-off "hollow moon as UFO" theory). And even some of the parts that were old news to me impressed me: here was a journalistic review of UFO literature that included stuff like "Alternative 3" (the original British book was banned in America), let alone Sitchin's work. So, I'm not so sure you were the only lucky one here.

What's more, I found myself castigating myself, after I began to go through Alien Agenda, because I was so arrogant and self-confident as to the extent of my knowledge about UFOs and such that I was almost unable to hear your recommendation of this book and recognize that I *hadn't* read it, and that I *didn't* already know everything that was in it. It's a mistake I hope I can avoid making again. [I might add, for the sake of amusement, that my wife has barely let me look at the book since we acquired it; I have to wait for her to go to bed or work on one of her art projects to get ten minutes alone with it. And of course she was the one who thought it so funny that I would buy the book to begin with. The A & E television series did *not* cover all of the material in the book, and she became immediately greedy to know what she had missed. How does the old phrase go? "My wife thanks you, my children thank you, my dog thanks you, and I thank you."

By way of an initial reply to your thoughts on the Velikovsky book, I think your thoughts on Nibiru are excellent. It *is* possible to put together the two "mythologically-based" cosmogonies of Sitchin and Velikovsky in the manner you suggest. What's more, it seems to me that the argument I have had in my head as to whether Sitchin's Twelfth Planet is a planet or a dwarf star or some other stellar object may not be all that relevant in terms of practical effects and implications. Since I would not rule out humanoid life living even on a stellar object, what would be the practical difference between a large planet and a small burnt-out star? None that I can see. And that may mean that I can just *add* all of the information I have ever accumulated in my mind about the Earth's Dark Companion with all the information I ever read about the Twelfth Planet -- because maybe the apparently diverse stories are about the same object.

Regardless of what anyone was calling the "approaching body," be it comet, planet, "ball of fire," stellar object, or whatever, there appears to be a regularly (if rarely) appearing object, very possibly inhabited by an advanced humanoid civilization, that has a tendency to cause major problems when it passes into the inner solar system every 3,600 years or so. A number of civilizations in human history have had contact with these people (and probably other people from other planets as well), and a number of civilizations have claimed advanced technologies that we thought beyond them that could have gotten such technology from "aliens" (e.g., Egyptian claims of the use of anti-gravity devices in the building of the pyramids).

[Still, just because I can't help it, do you notice how some of the descriptions you cite could suggest the approach of a stellar body rather than a planet? See Velikovsky #2, 4, 5, 7, 9 for references to its "fiery" appearance. Note that I believe humanoid life could exist on a stellar object (based on "cold" fusion, producing vast amounts of light and other radiation, but not heat per se), and that such an interpretation is not inherently inconsistent with Sitchin's theses.]

Recognizing that the story of the Exodus was probably the story of the interaction between "Nibiruans" (and most especially their Leader, Yahweh) and humans (Moses, Aaron, and the Cohanim who maintained the ark), I thought a lot more about the Ark of the Covenant. The material in the Bible explaining how to build it makes it sound like the completed Ark could be a capacitor of immense power, and might have been used to communicate directly with Yahweh on Nibiru.

This would also raise the question as to whether the Nibiruans are the Elohim (a plural word, composed of a female root, Eloh, meaning Holy Being, and a male plural ending, the only Hebrew word with an internal disagreement as to gender, which is the first word translated "God" in the Old Testament). If so, the story of the Tower of Babel makes a lot more sense, and becomes consistent with the materials presented by Velikovsky and Sitchin.

"Twelfth Planet" has sat on my bookshelf for years, but I have been looking at it again recently, as a result of your encouragements. Apparently, I remember some of the raps from books I've read, like Sitchin's, without any longer remembering who to credit for each of the ideas I repeat.

Gregory,

I think it is possible to interpret the "comet" as a stellar object from the descriptions offered, although I myself of course favor the "planet" choice. If I remember right, in one of the descriptions is mentioned a globe of fire that also is described as a sickle, which to me means that the reflection of the sun is very strong but doesn't "cover" the whole "planet". As for the rest, I have searched my trove of Sitchin information:

Regarding the Ark of the Covenant. The 12th Planet, page 305..........."bring to mind the Ark of the Covenant built by Moses under God's instructions. The chest was to be made of wood, overlaid with gold both inside and outside-----two electricity conducting surfaces were insulated by the wood between them. A "kapporeth", also made of gold, was to be placed above the chest and held up by two cherubim cast of solid gold. The nature of the "kapporeth" is not clear, but this verse from Exodus suggests it's purpose: "And I will address thee from above the Kapporeth, from between the two cherubim." The implication that the Ark of the Covenant was principally a communications box, electrically operated, is enhanced by it's portability. It was to be carried by means of wooden staffs passed through four golden rings. No one was to touch the chest proper, and when one Israelite did touch it, he was killed instantly-----as if by charge of high-voltage electricity."

Yes, I am positive that the Elohim are the Nibiruan "Gods". Sitchin elaborates over which one of the Annunaki that is Yahweh in one of his later books, "Divine Encounters", in the last chapter, "God, the Extraterrestrial". If I remember right he doesn't decide which one he favors as Yahweh, I remember that when I read it, I favored one of Enlil's sons, whose husbandry of the tribe of Israel was part of the intrigues between him and Marduk, the eldest son of Ea ( the creator of mankind.) I have a feeling that you are getting closer and closer to rereading Sitchin's books, at least I hope so!

My understanding of Sitchin's books is that the Nibiruans have ways of extending their lives enormously, supposedly Ea and Enlil, the two major players when our Earth was "colonized" around 450,000 years ago (according to Sitchin, I am open to all sorts of interpretations of Earths history), were still going strong when the Flood of the Bible happened 13,000 years ago, although afterwards their sons became The major players, especially Ea's son Marduk, who also was known as Ra, the "God" of Egypt.

I have gotten the impression that when mankind was "created", Ea and his co-workers actually had a choice as to whether they wanted to give mankind "eternal life", like they themselves had, but that this was denied us (unfortunately). Witness the stories from the Bible and Garden of Eden where it is said that "God " gave us pretty much everything except "eternal life". Several times Sitchin refers to the newly created human beings as "the black headed people", which makes me think that "we" were first all of us "Africans". I recently checked Alien Agenda out again and found references to the people of Nibiru being albinos, which makes me think that we, the white "race" are a combination of these albinos and "the black headed people" ( the Sons of the Gods looked at the Earthlings and found them compatible and took their daughters as wives). Another idea I have gotten from Sitchin's books is that the Nibiruans had a certain diet that extended their lives, ( "don't eat from the tree of eternal life")

I ran into the story of former Army Major David Moorehouse, supposedly a very gifted remote viewer and his book "Psychic Warrior" when I searched for info from "Alien Agenda" also an author called Randolph Winters that has written about Eduard "Billy" Meier, the Swiss national with a connection to aliens. His book is called "The Pleiadian Mission". I just ordered both books from Amazon.com, now there is no stopping me!

John,

On the matter of "procreating with the daughters of men," there are legends that in Atlantean times (I may remember this badly, so bear with me) human beings had "twelve strands of DNA instead of two" (or was it six to one?), and these extra strands of DNA gave them the ability to procreate with a wider range of creature. Cayce's readings about Atlantis (and some lesser known sources) discuss the "Things," creatures that were part human and part animal (Bugs Bunny et al. are expressions of these archetypal memories, "animals" like humans that could speak with you and in other ways act like people). The suggestion is that it was possible in those days for humans to interbreed with almost any kind of primate or mammal, because of all of the extra genetic material the average human being carried. The "giants" who interbred with the daughters of men could probably procreate with those humans precisely because they had more genetic material to work with. (The Cayce readings also discuss the Temples of Beauty, in which the "Things" were (surgically and genetically) turned into "pure" human beings; I believe that this "purification" was accomplished by "cleaning out" the "undesirable" genes, taking human beings from the broader genetic memory they had previously ("12 strands") to the lesser genetic stock they have now ("2 strands"). I wonder if it would *still* be possible for humans to interbreed with Elohim-Nibiruans; I doubt it, without some "adjustments."

It wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that the Elohim/Nibiruans in fact have a "real religion." Various books I have read referring to the Pleiadians suggest that part of what makes their civilization "advanced" are their "spiritual powers." Given my readings of both the Bible and the Koran (and various mystical texts along the way), my favorite for the "real religion" is worship of the Life Force (the God Within in New Age circles, the Holy Ghost in Trinitarian Christian circles, Allah in Islamic doctrine, and Yahweh [or the Living One or the Holy One in Hebrew doctrine] in Hebrew theology), a la Star Wars. I believe that the Life Force is conscious and self-aware as a whole field, that it permeates and interpenetrates anything that is alive or conscious (and our understanding of terms like "life" or "consciousness" are pitifully limited), and that its powers to alter "physical reality" are magical beyond our present capacity to imagine. I also believe that the "gods" (whether Elohim-Nibiruan or Pleiadians or Grays or Saurians or what-have-you) are as much aware of their connection to the Life Force as we lesser entities (sometimes) are; and I also think that both the Elohim-Nibiruans and the Pleiadians make use of the Life Force routinely, within them and around them, for what we would call "technological" purposes. [It's weird to give respect and deference to the religious construct put forth in a set of Spielberg movies, but if he's right, he's right.] But if "Yahweh" is one of the names of the "Life Force," and not an Elohim-Nibiruan Leader, then there's no telling who the present Leader is. I think, though, that when He incarnates in this sphere to take authority over the place, His name will be Immanuel (that's what the Conquering King is called in the Bible).

There is a lot of literature I haven't read about the Pleiadians, the Sirians, the Arcturans, and several other groups. Lots of people paint the Pleiadians like a spiritual version of Star Trek's Federation; people like Robert Anton Wilson (his new book, "Everything Is Under Control," is a gas for the conspiracy buff) prefer the Sirians (who seem to be more attractive in general to those with an occult bent).

Your reference to the Biblical genealogies makes it sound like you are entirely unfamiliar with them. As the old Negro spiritual goes: "Methusaleh lived 900 years." [Closer to 950, but who's quibbling?] Actually, lots of the earlier people listed in the Bible genealogies lived between 750 and 950 years; their descendants supposedly lived an average of 120 years (though many lived to ages of 150 to 180); and their descendants' descendants (and we) live an average of "three score and ten" years, per the Bible. My wife often thinks she can imagine what the "nectar of the gods" looks like; she thinks she can "smell" the potion. She has even had dreams in which people have offered it to her. I am sure that even ordinary human beings might be able to expand their lives quite phenomenally by using such "foods." What's more, I wonder if some of the stories about what happens during the "thousand years of peace" also referred to as the Millennium (the Bible implies that many people will live through that entire Millennium) suggest that the gods may provide access to the "good stuff," at least for some of us, at least for a while.

Yeah, so Nibiru is probably going to be by sometime soon, whether 2012, 2060, 2100 or whatever. That doesn't scare me all that much. If Earth experienced the same level of "catastrophe" when Nibiru came around again that it experienced in the time of Moses, it would be a hassle, but it wouldn't be the end of civilization as we know it either. People might do more harm to their culture having WWIII than by having Nibiru (or even a major comet, so long as it didn't actually *hit* the Earth) flash by. Nibiru looks pretty tame next to Wormwood.