#: 340819 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 01:05:44 Sb: #Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Frank Lam 70272,2334 (X) Well, if you run across and/or take measurements please share them with me. I could never live with the lower voltage of nickel-cadmium batteries. I prefer batteries have the higher limits of their nominal voltage range. Yes, problems such as shorter life spans of load devices accompany the higher voltages, but I accept that. I keep flashlights nearby wherever I go, and I prefer small, easy to handle types that typically use AA batteries. I replace the bulbs with the halogen or krypton variety in order to obtain a really bright illumination. Nickel-cadmium AA batteries just won't supply the necessary juice for halogen bulbs. Nor will standard zinc chloride AA batteries for any serious length of time. Thanks for sharing, ---GeM * Reply: 340883 #: 340883 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 07:41:13 Sb: #340819-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 (X) Nice to learn I'm not the only flashlight-fetishist on the planet. I try just about every high-tech light that comes out, but the Maglites remain my favorites. All sizes, all colors, all over the place...at least three within an arm's reach of the driver's seat. Jes' call me a halogen/alkaline junkie. * Replies: 340946, 341052, 342077 #: 340946 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 14:14:32 Sb: #340883-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Mike Phillips 70116,1076 To: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 (X) FYI, I've heard that the new AA Lithiums will burn out the bulb on the Mini-Maglites. Haven't tried for myself. Best, Mike. * Replies: 341051, 341329, 342084 #: 341051 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 21:07:04 Sb: #340946-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Frank Lam 70272,2334 To: Mike Phillips 70116,1076 (X) >>I've heard that the new AA Lithiums will burn out the bulb on the Mini-Maglites.<< Well, I'll probably be able to tell you soon, because I just put lithium AA's in both of my Mini-Maglites. Of course, I don't use the lights frequently or very long at a time, which is the main reason for installing the lithiums. They have better cold weather capabilty and very long shelf life so that they should be more dependably available. The measured OC voltage on the new lithiums was 1.7+ volts compared to 1.5+ volts for new alkalines. I doubt that this voltage difference will impact significantly the life of the bulb, unless one leaves the light on and face down for a period of time allowing the bulb to become overheated. Frank * Reply: 342085 #: 342085 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:08:24 Sb: #341051-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Frank Lam 70272,2334 RE: " The measured OC voltage on the new lithiums was 1.7+ volts compared to 1.5+ volts for new alkalines. I doubt that this voltage difference will impact significantly the life of the bulb " I dunno, Frank, you're talking about a better than 13% jump above nominal voltage. Light bulbs are very sensitive to voltage levels. Thanks for sharing, ---GeM * Reply: 342270 #: 342270 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 21:18:18 Sb: #342085-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Frank Lam 70272,2334 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 (X) >>Light bulbs are very sensitive to voltage levels.<< I guess I'm going to find out *how* sensitive because I just installed lithium AA's in three of my Mini-Maglites! Frank * Reply: 343234 #: 343234 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 10-Jul-93 11:37:29 Sb: #342270-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Frank Lam 70272,2334 (X) I'm keeping up, Frank. I just loaded a pair (all the AA lithium's my local dealer had in stock) of Everready lithium AA's in one of my RayOvac flat plastic pocket flashlights (can't presently recall the actual name of the unit). The installed bulb is a 3 volt halogen I purchased at Radio Shack. So far so good! Talk about a super bright beam!! Hey, did you take a meter reading on any of your lithium AA's before installation? I did, and my findings even topped what thread participant Frank Lam reported. The 2 I bought came in at 1.800 and 1.809 volts on my Fluke meter! Heck, that's 20% above nominal AA voltage!! It's no wonder we've heard reports of flashlight bulb burnouts. While I've not recorded the burn time of my lithium installed 3 volt flashlight, I've been using it exclusively around my office. So far, so good. The halogen bulbs are holding and the output beam remains dazzling bright white. I'll try to remember to take another voltage reading to see how the drop is progressing. Thanks for sharing, ---GeM * Reply: 343252 #: 343252 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 10-Jul-93 13:03:16 Sb: #343234-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Frank Lam 70272,2334 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 Jim, The success so far with the the lithiums in your flat flashlight sounds great. Keep us posted. I've not used my lithium-equipped mini-Maglite much yet, but no bulb burn out yet. No, I haven't measured lithium voltages higher than 1.7+ yet. Frank #: 341329 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 05-Jul-93 19:44:02 Sb: #340946-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 To: Mike Phillips 70116,1076 (X) Mike, Yes, AA lithiums will burn out a Mag-Lite bulb. Marty * Reply: 342086 #: 342086 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:08:27 Sb: #341329-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 (X) RE: " AA lithiums will burn out a Mag-Lite bulb " Yes, but then regular AA will do the same. The time factor is the question. Can you provide up with a burnout time comparison between the new AA lithium and a AA Alkaline? Thanks, ---GeM * Reply: 343261 #: 343261 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 10-Jul-93 13:20:02 Sb: #342086-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 Jim, AA lithiums burn out the bulb much faster - like in 2 hours. Marty #: 342084 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:08:21 Sb: #340946-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Mike Phillips 70116,1076 (X) RE: " I've heard that the new AA Lithiums will burn out the bulb on the Mini-Maglites. " Did the person(s) you "heard" that from provide any insight, Mike? Did you wonder why the new batteries would so quickly burn out the bulbs if they are @ the nominal voltage? I certainly wonder. If indeed it's true that AA lithium's quickly burn out bulbs designed for AA power, then perhaps the voltage is significantly higher than nominal. If that's the case I suppose the maker did a poor job of paring down lithium voltage. Perhaps experimentation with bulbs designed for higher voltage is in order. Thanks for sharing, ---GeM * Reply: 342115 #: 342115 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 13:59:00 Sb: #342084-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Mike Phillips 70116,1076 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 Jim, As I understand it the nominal no load voltage of AA Lithiums is 1.6v-1.7v rather than 1.5v. I work for Nikon and our factory has taken the position that AA Lithiums should not be used in our products and any damage will not be covered by our warranty. I have no idea whether they have isolated specific problems or are merely being conservative until more testing and reliabilty over time has been demonstrated. Believe me I want them to work for the advantages in weight, low temp threshold, shelf life & capacity. I've been watching this issue since they first appeared in limited markets in November of last year. Someone here replied in this thread a few days ago that he HAS experienced Mini-Mag bulb problems with AA Lithiums when I mentioned what I had "heard". Best, Mike. * Reply: 343235 #: 343235 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 10-Jul-93 11:37:36 Sb: #342115-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Mike Phillips 70116,1076 (X) RE: " As I understand it the nominal no load voltage of AA Lithiums is 1.6v-1.7v rather than 1.5v. " Then that should be *clearly* stated on the package if not the batteries as well, Mike. It's not nice to deceive, and a 13% unannounced voltage overage is sufficient enough to call deception, IMO. I've not investigated for the regulations of standards within the dry cell arena, Mike, but to me the nominal voltage of a "standard" size dry cell is not something an individual manufacturer should fool with. In other words, to me the "nominal" voltage of AA batteries is 1.5 volts period. If you are not with me on that stance perhaps you will agree that "nominal," in this application essentially means the voltage given/claimed on the label/package. This voltage overage situation gets even worse when you consider that the lithium AA samples I've purchased came in at 1.800 and 1.809 volts! Realize, please, that such a measurement is 20% above "nominal." RE: " the advantages in weight " Has anyone measured/reported the actual weight difference of the AA's? As for the flashlight bulb burnout situation, both thread participant Frank Lam and I now have lithium AA's installed in halogen bulb equipped flashlights, so stay tuned. Thanks an awful lot for sharing your considerable knowledge, ---GeM #: 341052 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 21:07:07 Sb: #340883-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Frank Lam 70272,2334 To: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 (X) >>Jes' call me a halogen/alkaline junkie.<< Me too! So have you bought one of the $64 Sure-Fire 6P super xenon lithium power 'police specials' yet? Saw it first in the Beverly Hills Motoring Assn catalog for $75 but looked around and found and bought mine from Sporty's and love it. It's only 1.25" (at the head) by 4" long yet is purported to deliver an 11.5 candela output compared to 6.5 candela for a five D-cell regular light! It has a permanently mated xenon bulb/reflector combination for great focus and uniform beam coverage. Uses 2 lithium cells of the photoflash type. It's construction is *similar* but different from the Maglites: Has a 'twist tail' for permanent ON plus a rubber button on butt end for thumb operation while gripping the light with the fingers wrapped aroung it in 'pushpull/click click pencil' fashion - great for map reading, etc. Neat size and lots of light, plus the use of large capacity lithiums for more energy and shelf life. Supposedly, the current 'hot tip' for policeman. Pricey, but if not now, when? Frank #: 342077 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:07:58 Sb: #340883-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 I like the Maglites and own a several of them, Michael. The only serious shortcoming they have is that they are not readily suitable for being held in ones mouth . I've discovered that holding a flashlight in my mouth is often like having a third hand. For that reason I mostly use the flat Ray-O-Vac AAx2 unit with either krypton or halogen bulbs (krypton seem a _very_ tiny bit brighter to me, but halogen lasts many times longer). 'Course, big ol' guys who are essentially sissies cannot hold a flashlight in their teeth without gagging . Michael, a flashlight always sits atop my computer stations--all 3 of 'em. The better to check on cabling and/or the difficult-to-see/read, often molded with the case labeling's computerists must read, ahem, occasionally. As for my home, flashlights can also be found in my bedroom--the better to actually see what I shooting at. The can also be found in my kitchen, gameroom, hobby room, TV room, laundry room, entryway, garage, and backyard workshop. Also, all 3 of my exclusive vehicles have flashlights aboard. The problem with vehicular based flashlights is remembering to change the batteries frequently. Temperature extremes take their toll. I'm all too aware that many people typically do not have a working flashlight in their homes, offices, or vehicles. Ironically, many of them also live and work in the shadows of dark, dreary places encumbered with lots of beautiful and expensive dark woods and whatnot. Oh, I love beautiful wood, but it beats me why so many folks wish to live and work in an environment that illuminates something like a cave. No cave man here, ---GeM PS: I also have a couple of those high output spotlights that plug into vehicle cigar lighter receptacles . * Reply: 342272 #: 342272 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 21:18:22 Sb: #342077-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Frank Lam 70272,2334 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 (X) >>Temperature extremes take their toll.<< Sounds like you're a candidate for lithiums also. Frank #: 340820 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 01:05:48 Sb: #Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Frank Lam 70272,2334 (X) RE: " I've already started collecting the partially discharged alkalines! " Do they have to be "partially discharged." What if they're deeply discharged? Would reasonably full voltage be restored with AA's only slightly discharged? Thanks for sharing, ---GeM PS: Let's hope "Consumer Reports" reviews the new alkaline recharges. Perhaps they will provide us with voltage levels and comparative discharge curves between fresh and recharged samples of various sizes. * Reply: 341050 #: 341050 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 21:07:01 Sb: #340820-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Frank Lam 70272,2334 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 (X) >>What if they're deeply discharged?<< I can't answer your question yet since I haven't received the recharger. I seem to remember reading somewhere that fully discharged alkalines are not rechargeable. I will try to cover a variety of initial discharge conditions in my 'informal, homebrew' tests of the recharger. The reason I mentioned about collecting 'partially discharged' alkalines is because I have ended up with quite a few partially discharged AA's from my HP95 Palmtop. It has a conservative battery monitor circuit which starts giving one a 'replace main batteries' warning well before full discharge. Frank #: 340822 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 01:12:21 Sb: #Alkaline recharger? Fm: Chip Stratton 76154,374 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 (X) WRT 'accelerometer', as you probably know, acceleration or deceleration is just a matter of your particular frame of reference. Calling an accelerometer a 'de-accelerometer' would imply a distinction which does not exist, as far as the sensor itself is concerned. Chip * Reply: 342081 #: 342081 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:08:11 Sb: #340822-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Chip Stratton 76154,374 RE: " Calling an accelerometer a 'de-accelerometer' would imply a distinction which does not exist, as far as the sensor itself is concerned. " Nonsense, doing so would define the purpose, Chip. Whatever could be wrong with that? Think real hard and I'll bet you can come up with examples wherein things are named differently due to different applications. Kinda helps communication, doesn't it? Virtually everybody agrees that our communication is greatly hampered via common languages. What _can_ be done, Chip? It's pointless to blame the masses, is it not? But what is wrong with holding degreed professionals accountable for their contributions to the confusion? I say we _should_ hold them accountable in some way. Voicing our disapproval is one such way, so I do my part. Now let's see, does ATM mean automatic teller machine, Adobe Type Manager, or what? Acronyms are highly favored by engineers, I've found. First they give unnecessarily long names to something, then they call it by the acronym. Folks either never knew or forget what the heck it means, with simple confusion turning to chaos when "they" popularize the same combinations for something else. Not the person responsible for "you" being both singular and plural, ---GeM PS: I'm sure you know what is typically _meant_ by "PPN" here on CompuServe, but do you know what the letters actually stand for? If so, don't you agree that this produces needless confusion? #: 340882 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 07:34:43 Sb: #Alkaline recharger? Fm: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 To: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 (X) I saw a Dick Clark commercial for the Superchargers on CNBC just after midnight Saturday. At the end, there was a print announcement that seemed to say that a whole bunch of battery makers, whose products had been displayed in the commercial, DO NOT ENDORSE the Supercharger. It was a long msg, and flew by much too quickly even for this speed reader to digest. ----------------------- A few days ago there was some discussion here about who owns which battery companies, and which componies make batteries for competing brands. I just read yesterday that Eveready is owned by Ralston Purina. Maybe they make bunny food as well as Puppy Chow. * Replies: 341046, 341331, 342082 #: 341046 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 21:04:36 Sb: #340882-#Alkaline recharger? Fm: Marc Wielage [Sysop] 76702,1025 To: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 (X) I think we'll buy one of those SuperCharger things from Dick Clark just to see if the silly thing works. One thing the commercial does not come out and say is exactly how long the recharged batteries will last. My impression is that even at their best, a re-charged Alkaline will not last 100% as long as a new one. I think I'll be amazed if they can even hit 75% on a re-charge. --MFW * Reply: 342083 #: 342083 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:08:17 Sb: #341046-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Marc Wielage [Sysop] 76702,1025 RE: " I think I'll be amazed if they can even hit 75% on a re-charge. " I'm with you, Marc, but let's hope the thing succeeds anyway. Our environment needs all the help it can get. Thanks for sharing, ---GeM #: 341331 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 05-Jul-93 19:44:06 Sb: #340882-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 To: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 (X) Michael, Yes, I saw the same commercial on Sci-Fi Hannel this weekend with Dick Clark. And that disclaimer was more like a subliminal screen that passed by. I think they don't use Energizers for the Energizer Bunny. They feed him Rabbit Chow . Marty #: 342082 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:08:14 Sb: #340882-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Michael N Marcus [Sysop] 71660,2547 RE: " It was a long msg, and flew by much too quickly even for this speed reader to digest. " Doggone it, Michael, where the heck was your VCR remote? Better hope Marc Wielage doesn't take note of your above . Hey, who are we to question the honesty of Dick Clark, anyway? Especially in light of all the free TV the battery companies foot the bill for. Happy Trails, ---GeM #: 341005 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 04-Jul-93 19:20:29 Sb: #Alkaline recharger? Fm: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 (X) Jim, The Eveready Lithium AA cells have a 4250 MAh rating, which makes them last 2-3 times as long as the highest rated alkalines. They are 1.5 volts and are really made for photo use (flashs). I use them in electronic gear (palmtops, hand held tv, game boy) and they work just fine. For use in something like a portable flashlight, they keep burning out bulbs, so I don't think they work for everything. They are &5 for 2 in a pack. KMart and Pay Less Drug has them. Marty * Reply: 342078 #: 342078 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 07-Jul-93 12:08:01 Sb: #341005-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 (X) Thanks for the info, Marty. Guess I'll have to see how quickly they burn out halogen bulbs . Thanks for sharing, ---GeM #: 341330 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 05-Jul-93 19:44:04 Sb: #Alkaline recharger? Fm: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 To: Frank Lam 70272,2334 (X) Frank, The alklaine charger from BuddyL has been advertised on the Sci-Fi Channel. It's $34.95 for the portable version (AAA & AA cells) and $49.95 for the larger model. I think I may just end up buying one of the portable units and trying it out. But I still would like to see your report. Marty * Reply: 341468 #: 341468 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 05-Jul-93 23:51:29 Sb: #341330-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Frank Lam 70272,2334 To: Marty Mankins [PALMTOP] 75300,1770 (X) Marty, >>But I still would like to see your report.<< It will be available 'real soon' after the 'please allow four to six weeks for shipping' period has passed! Frank #: 341489 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 06-Jul-93 00:45:52 Sb: #340487-Alkaline recharger? Fm: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 To: Mike O'Connor 76004,1447 (X) WoW!, Mike, thanks a lot for taking the time to share all of that! Sounds like recharging alkalines will be a worthy thing to do. I can't say that I will, however, since I can easily afford any amount of alkaline batteries, but I certainly like the conservation/environmental aspect of others recharging . I suppose I'm more of a candidate for the new lithium AA equivalents than anything else (assuming they indeed last a lot longer). Thanks for sharing, ---GeM #: 345743 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 17-Jul-93 09:30:48 Sb: Alkaline recharger? Fm: M. Mankins [Portability! 75300,1770 To: Brian Simmons/CO 73447,3044 (X) Brian, It looks like this BuddyL alakline charger uses some smart ICs to handle the charging effects. Years ago, chargers were not smart enough to let you charge cells forever. Back then I think I remember a company that made a device that was simply a sligtly modified ni-cad charger that said it worked with alaklines. The reason alkaline battery companies don't endorse charging is 1) there are some dangers of charging a battery that was not originially designed to be charged and 2) people won't buy more batteries if they are able to charge their cells 5-6 times. Marty #: 346685 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 19-Jul-93 15:59:48 Sb: Alkaline recharger? Fm: Burt Chabot 76520,3051 To: Jim Whitlow 73517,3024 (X) Parden the thread lerking (thread dropping?). Under What kind of load are these voltage tests being made ? Earlyer in the thread flukes were being compaired, was that with the 3volt halogen (on .5 ma?)or krypton (250ma-300ma?). If the lithium? AA is intended for photoflash applications ( as some of them are ) load the cells down with a photoflash charging (a heavy load) and if your much off 1.54v or what ever the package label seys, complain to mallory or whom ever. Your unloaded voltmeter may vary but they are built to not offer any load ( at 10meg/volt that a pico amp load) not enough to get you real result. Lithium cells tend to have really flat voltage/ life of cell. Alkaline start at 1.67 and drop to 1.5 after the shine is off the battery posts. There are sure to be sharper people on here that know more, I just haven't seen them on this thread yet. FWIW BC #: 345618 S10/Misc. Electronics [CEFORU 16-Jul-93 21:48:41 Sb: Rechargable Alkalines Fm: Beth Murray 70003,1761 To: ALL Hi Folks, I've been reading the Alkaline recharger thread and was wondering whether any other company will be making these devices, or do I have to buy that UGLY Buddy-L unit!! I'd also like to be able to recharge more that 4 batteries at once, but I could live with that. I almost ordered the thing last night, but decided to ask here and see if there will be any other models/manufacturers! Thanks.